I never cease to be amazed at how someone credentialed can sell this shit but also how forgiving some of the general public are that are that they do.
When I was still a high tech software executive, I had the opportunity to take a job that I thought would be more meaningful working for a Pharma company that was building lab tests that used DNA testing to detect certain kinds of cancers using a blood test. The DNA analysis used complicated software and it was the kind of thing I had been building and marketing for years so I took the job.
Early on, I asked a question about whether we could try the software in a certain way, which to a person who had worked in software his entire career, was not a big deal. The response I got from one of the bio-scientists when I asked, but why can't we do that was, "Because someone could die." I instantly realized I wasn't working on "just software" anymore. I was working on software where the implications of certain kinds of errors was life or death and we had a responsibility to be more careful and think through our decisions.
Fast forward to now, and this article. The upside of a Turmeric supplement is no better than a placebo. So really, there is zero upside, but the downside, albeit small, is the risk of liver failure and death. That is a shitty trade off if you ask me given you could have just given them the placebo and eliminated the risk altogether to get the same result.
So when people comment online, especially on Instagram, "what's the big deal, it's just Turmeric, so what if they just have a placebo response, at least for those people they feel better." my answer is the big deal is that someone might die who didn't have to. I don't think the tradeoff that some people feel better for a little while, who could have felt better with a placebo anyway, is worth someone's mother, sister, or daughter dying.
I am just an ex software executive and even I got it. I only had to be told that one time. "Because people could die".
I am am no longer shocked, but I am disappointed that there are so-called "experts" and "influencers" supposedly dedicated to health care with credentials of MD or PhD, who are willing to use shitty science to justify the sale of products that have no distinguishable upside but could actually kill someone, just so they could make a few bucks.
This article was so validating to read. Thank you. I’ve been blocked by Haver recently so it must have been because I pointed out something about one of the studies she was quoting. Im fine with that 😌. But I’m getting so frustrated by seeing these people who are marketing to women who believe the science-speak and are taking advantage of them.
My menopause is not on the market for someone’s profit.
I did some of Dr Sims's courses a couple of years ago before she become a mainstream influencer and she presented some key findings like differences in kisspeptin neurons in men and women that meant we were supposedly more sensitive to nutrient density.
So keto and IF were no-no's, as was fasted training. When I wanted to look further into this, the only studies I could find were in rodents. I was so blinded by her standing and the authoritative manner that she presented this and other things, I felt sure this was a mistake.
Most of us taking her courses were PT's, keen recreational athletes and endurance athletes and not scientists so we didn't have the skills to critically evaluate the quality of the evidence she shared.
In fact I remember when question came up about protein where the findings were based on rats and she was pretty dismissive of it.
The part that I find most disappointing is her refusal to engage with other scientists who question the evidence that she presents. I would think a true scientist would be open to debate and would be glad to be found wrong because it furthers science, not just blocking people you don't agree with.
midlifer in the UK who loves to train. I have been a big fan of Sims. It is the first time I have seen her described as a "mainstream influencer" which really made me pause! I do have Next Level but it is too dense for me. I bought and really enjoyed the programme she did with Hailey Happens. I have made some changes in my training and nutrition as a result of Sims' work and advice. I am happy with them. Momentous is too expensive for me and really pushes a Huberman stack so that it is turn off for me!
The good news is that Sims does call BS on weighted vests!!!
Thanks to Dr Gunter for all that she does. Brilliant subscription value.
I think you nailed why I find this so frustrating. As a now former weekend triathlete, I followed a lot of what Stacy Sims suggested and it felt so realistic. No crazy diets, food advice that made sense, things that felt tailored to women. So now to see her pushing supplements that have zero evidence, I wonder if I can trust anything she advocates for. What a great way to trash all the goodwill she has created.
Yes I enjoyed her courses and have her books. I can see what she is trying to do which is to change the narrative that she saw in a lot of athletes under eating but to present in absolutes with no distinction between average women and elite athletes is misleading and discouraging for people.
So... I have also been weirded out by this. Haver is a no brainer; she very conspicuously talks crap you can tell she's in love with the idea of herself as a womens health influencer. It's generally easy (for me at least) to separate out the total hooey from things she says that happen to be true. Sims? Hmm.
Sims seems like SUCH a BS artist to me, but she has been featured multiple times on The Proof, Simon Hill's podcast, with a conspicuous absence of reality checking from simon, who is generally a kind but rigorous debunker as well as a nutrition scientist who seems to be trusted by other scientists, physicians, and the public. I bit my tongue and stayed out of the comments because I genuinely think Simon does important work, but... hey guess what, Momentous is a major sponsor of his pod.
Yup, I think you're right about that. Great point - the advertisers would have definite influence as to what could be debunked. That's why I so appreciate Dr Jen's stance and that she can't be bought.
same. And to be clear, I do believe Simon's a high integrity dude, and that he is pretty selective about supporting or promoting products and transparent about sponsorships; I have no significant evidence to the contrary. He has too much ego invested in himself as a truthteller; his platform depends on it (and hey, there are way worse platforms). So I'm not trying to underbus the guy. But every time I see stacy on his pod, part of me wonders what it is I'm not getting. (OK, who's next, fricking mindy pelz? sorry).
Same. And, I think the last time Simon had Stacy visit his pod was 2023. I hope he never invites her back unless he debates her. I did question Simon on how his integrity will be impacted by taking sponsors. He said he did not feel they would influence it. Time will tell.
This touched me personally as a co-worker and patient of mine died from liver failure most likely due to one or more of the 14 supplements she was taking. It haunts me to this day, because although I asked about all of the supplements in a busy clinic I didn’t have the time to address this more in depth.
I have seen people with a list of supplements so long it made my head spin. When questioned they became very defensive about the supplements and often got angry when I had data to refute their effectiveness.
I love Jen Gunter!!!! Thank you for doing all of the research for those of us who follow evidence based medicine. The business of menopause and longevity has become ridiculous.
I tend to agree that for every research study there could be several found that will not support the original theory. Marketing of products has taken a new twist. There are several social media "professionals" that are using persuasion to reap the rewards of marketing products. What ever happened to the oath, do no harm? I think many women fall for this out of desperation as many have health care professionals who really do not have the education in the treatment for menopause issues or for that matter womens' health.
Thank you for shining a light on misleading data and faulty conclusions. I appreciate the way you methodically go through the “supporting data” and clarify it for the readers.
I never cease to be amazed at how someone credentialed can sell this shit but also how forgiving some of the general public are that are that they do.
When I was still a high tech software executive, I had the opportunity to take a job that I thought would be more meaningful working for a Pharma company that was building lab tests that used DNA testing to detect certain kinds of cancers using a blood test. The DNA analysis used complicated software and it was the kind of thing I had been building and marketing for years so I took the job.
Early on, I asked a question about whether we could try the software in a certain way, which to a person who had worked in software his entire career, was not a big deal. The response I got from one of the bio-scientists when I asked, but why can't we do that was, "Because someone could die." I instantly realized I wasn't working on "just software" anymore. I was working on software where the implications of certain kinds of errors was life or death and we had a responsibility to be more careful and think through our decisions.
Fast forward to now, and this article. The upside of a Turmeric supplement is no better than a placebo. So really, there is zero upside, but the downside, albeit small, is the risk of liver failure and death. That is a shitty trade off if you ask me given you could have just given them the placebo and eliminated the risk altogether to get the same result.
So when people comment online, especially on Instagram, "what's the big deal, it's just Turmeric, so what if they just have a placebo response, at least for those people they feel better." my answer is the big deal is that someone might die who didn't have to. I don't think the tradeoff that some people feel better for a little while, who could have felt better with a placebo anyway, is worth someone's mother, sister, or daughter dying.
I am just an ex software executive and even I got it. I only had to be told that one time. "Because people could die".
I am am no longer shocked, but I am disappointed that there are so-called "experts" and "influencers" supposedly dedicated to health care with credentials of MD or PhD, who are willing to use shitty science to justify the sale of products that have no distinguishable upside but could actually kill someone, just so they could make a few bucks.
This article was so validating to read. Thank you. I’ve been blocked by Haver recently so it must have been because I pointed out something about one of the studies she was quoting. Im fine with that 😌. But I’m getting so frustrated by seeing these people who are marketing to women who believe the science-speak and are taking advantage of them.
My menopause is not on the market for someone’s profit.
I did some of Dr Sims's courses a couple of years ago before she become a mainstream influencer and she presented some key findings like differences in kisspeptin neurons in men and women that meant we were supposedly more sensitive to nutrient density.
So keto and IF were no-no's, as was fasted training. When I wanted to look further into this, the only studies I could find were in rodents. I was so blinded by her standing and the authoritative manner that she presented this and other things, I felt sure this was a mistake.
Most of us taking her courses were PT's, keen recreational athletes and endurance athletes and not scientists so we didn't have the skills to critically evaluate the quality of the evidence she shared.
In fact I remember when question came up about protein where the findings were based on rats and she was pretty dismissive of it.
The part that I find most disappointing is her refusal to engage with other scientists who question the evidence that she presents. I would think a true scientist would be open to debate and would be glad to be found wrong because it furthers science, not just blocking people you don't agree with.
Thank you for sharing
Thank you for your insight. I am just a
midlifer in the UK who loves to train. I have been a big fan of Sims. It is the first time I have seen her described as a "mainstream influencer" which really made me pause! I do have Next Level but it is too dense for me. I bought and really enjoyed the programme she did with Hailey Happens. I have made some changes in my training and nutrition as a result of Sims' work and advice. I am happy with them. Momentous is too expensive for me and really pushes a Huberman stack so that it is turn off for me!
The good news is that Sims does call BS on weighted vests!!!
Thanks to Dr Gunter for all that she does. Brilliant subscription value.
I think you nailed why I find this so frustrating. As a now former weekend triathlete, I followed a lot of what Stacy Sims suggested and it felt so realistic. No crazy diets, food advice that made sense, things that felt tailored to women. So now to see her pushing supplements that have zero evidence, I wonder if I can trust anything she advocates for. What a great way to trash all the goodwill she has created.
Yes I enjoyed her courses and have her books. I can see what she is trying to do which is to change the narrative that she saw in a lot of athletes under eating but to present in absolutes with no distinction between average women and elite athletes is misleading and discouraging for people.
So... I have also been weirded out by this. Haver is a no brainer; she very conspicuously talks crap you can tell she's in love with the idea of herself as a womens health influencer. It's generally easy (for me at least) to separate out the total hooey from things she says that happen to be true. Sims? Hmm.
Sims seems like SUCH a BS artist to me, but she has been featured multiple times on The Proof, Simon Hill's podcast, with a conspicuous absence of reality checking from simon, who is generally a kind but rigorous debunker as well as a nutrition scientist who seems to be trusted by other scientists, physicians, and the public. I bit my tongue and stayed out of the comments because I genuinely think Simon does important work, but... hey guess what, Momentous is a major sponsor of his pod.
Yup, I think you're right about that. Great point - the advertisers would have definite influence as to what could be debunked. That's why I so appreciate Dr Jen's stance and that she can't be bought.
same. And to be clear, I do believe Simon's a high integrity dude, and that he is pretty selective about supporting or promoting products and transparent about sponsorships; I have no significant evidence to the contrary. He has too much ego invested in himself as a truthteller; his platform depends on it (and hey, there are way worse platforms). So I'm not trying to underbus the guy. But every time I see stacy on his pod, part of me wonders what it is I'm not getting. (OK, who's next, fricking mindy pelz? sorry).
Same. And, I think the last time Simon had Stacy visit his pod was 2023. I hope he never invites her back unless he debates her. I did question Simon on how his integrity will be impacted by taking sponsors. He said he did not feel they would influence it. Time will tell.
Your breakdown of how easy and lucrative it is to create these supplements is as compelling as the takedown of these menopause MDs' turmeric science.
Just love your work so much. Very very helpful in combatting the meno shit-tide.
Thank you.
My new phrase of the week.
This touched me personally as a co-worker and patient of mine died from liver failure most likely due to one or more of the 14 supplements she was taking. It haunts me to this day, because although I asked about all of the supplements in a busy clinic I didn’t have the time to address this more in depth.
I have seen people with a list of supplements so long it made my head spin. When questioned they became very defensive about the supplements and often got angry when I had data to refute their effectiveness.
Scary stuff.
Thank you for sharing
I love Jen Gunter!!!! Thank you for doing all of the research for those of us who follow evidence based medicine. The business of menopause and longevity has become ridiculous.
Worth the cost of a subscription! Thank you!
I say this to myself every newsletter!!
I tend to agree that for every research study there could be several found that will not support the original theory. Marketing of products has taken a new twist. There are several social media "professionals" that are using persuasion to reap the rewards of marketing products. What ever happened to the oath, do no harm? I think many women fall for this out of desperation as many have health care professionals who really do not have the education in the treatment for menopause issues or for that matter womens' health.
Thank you for taking the time to dig into this and share it. The commercialization of menopause is so disgusting.
Thank you for shining a light on misleading data and faulty conclusions. I appreciate the way you methodically go through the “supporting data” and clarify it for the readers.
Thank you!! They need to be called out!
Thank you, these 2 women…ugh makes me so angry 😡
Thanks for writing this. It is very sad to see the increase use of pseudo science for profit
Brava! (as usual)
Bravo!!!!! I am standing up clapping for you right now (in my mind!)